manufacturers identifying marks, more commonly referred to as Proof Marks, Arsenal or Inspector Marks of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most typical pieces of his I think the barrels of that gun are solid steel, and the marking would seem to bear that out, but the gun should be examined by a knowledgeable gunsmith before firing with modern ammunition. I found a couple on this site and also nramuseum.com leading me to believe its a British or Belgian gun. so that means it is for sure a 12 gauge? There are a total of [ 71 ] Belgium Infantry Arms List (Current and Former Types) entries in the Military Factory. This includes many fine Browning A5 shotguns and the Superposed shotgun. Drue, yes, the absence of rifling means that this pin-fire was used for shot.Pin-fires represent an important stage in the development of firearms. This mark is found on guns that is not made in Belgium by countries that use proofs that is not recognized by the Belgian Proof House. On the bottom of the barrel it has the proof mark like number 9 (E,L,G,) (no crown). Smaller gauges progressively cost more, with 20-gauge guns generally bringing at least twice the price of a 12 gauge. Just because a long gun from Belgium is a flintlock, therefore, doesn't necessarily mean that it's "of the period," as antique dealers say. Unmarked barrel with Belgian proof mark, action currently . Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 2008. Where did you find the Falla mark? Clment Charles Philibert In its small version its a acceptance mark on barrels that was exported in a unfinished state 1846-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small pistols and revolvers barrels 1866-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small revolvers cylinders 1866-1893. I also looked at other European proof marks but didn't find the one you mention: compare http://www.cornellpubs.com/Catalog/proof-marks-intl.pdf. rifle,over a 12 ga. shotgun. The British Sporting Gun and Rifle: Pursuit of Perfection 1850-1900. There's no indication of gauge. I'm a ypunger collector/gun activist. Good examples of the information that can be derived from adequate images. time, therefore assisting in dating the arm. No maker's name anywhere? Information, NRA http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl m/www/home, https://www.hunting.be/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Belgian-Proof-Marks.pdf, Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1, https://docs.google.com/document/d/17yC Xntqw/edit, https://www.dropbox.com/sc/0sf7osf1dtg1s3r/AABKOd3k4GaQV_ppAci4eWNka, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGA g=PA52&lpg, http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en _type_id=7, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=471622, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=474548, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA53, http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/ar a%20gb.htm, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3618, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3202. In contrast to Walther, Mauser did not start over with serial numbers at the . The family was in the barrel making business from the 1880's until mid the 1960's. http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm This is Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont and his son Oscar, 1924. Seen The system of proof in Great Britain was as follows: In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. "Arsenal" or "Inspector Marks". I know the bottom image. These two, and sometimes the makers private mark, may be found on many old weapons. Ithaca opened in 1883 and built a number of different boxlock-style side-by-sides, including the Crass . Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! The drawings vary in style due to differences in the original information.Most are black silhouettes, but some of those that have been produced from photographs have a quasi 3 dimensional appearance that requires the onlooker . For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. it says made in belgium on the side of the barrel yes but on the top of the barrell it says acier cokerill on 1 barrel on the top and on the other barrel on the top next to it it just says liege belgium and yes there is a stamp on the inside of the barrel next to all the other markings that says LLH what does that mean? Saillevillean E. reversed set in a square stamp (as shown below). Delcour-Dupont was a barrel maker in Nessonvaux, Belgium. Are also discussed the many markings found applied on the guns and their The fifth a crown, with three crossed spikes set over a capital E. Other French towns had their special marks, such as If you can, send me a photo: ghcox3@gmail.com.Best,Gerry, Gerry;I just sent you a photo of what I believe are the proof marks of a Belgium made double barrel 10 gauge shotgun. Thanks! Broqua & Scholberg Charlier Ch. listed in alphabetical order. Closset Louis Hi, thanks for the info and knowledge you provided. The same stamp but smaller is found on Flobert guns, selfloading pistols with a excess proof pressure of 50%, on barrels of top break guns for Flobert or revolvers cartridges an excess pressure of 30% and or revolvers which are proofed with 30-50% excess loads. I'm not familiar with the proof mark you describe, although a French one exists of AR with a three-pronged crown above, used for smokeless powder proof (but no M). One issue of this collection for the year 1910, which I found in the US Library of Congress, contains a curious case which throws some light on how some Belgian gun manufacturers actually operated. I'm very excited and can't wait for some replies. Joseph Farrell on October 27, 2020: Ray D, STOGERS, advertised them as being made for the AFRICAN tribes to hunt with because with them they would not be able to rebel against the BELGIAN rulers who had modern arms. These include the Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. By Alain Daubresse. to share our findings by this means of communication. Bury Jules. Smokeless powder proof of military rifles until 1903, thereafter indicates nitro proof for all types of arms. Under their charter the Gunmakers Company had powers to prove and mark all manner of hand guns, daggs, and pistols, and every part thereof, whether made in London or in the suburbs, or within ten miles thereof, or brought thither for sale, or imported for foreign parts. In addition to Paypal, Order Bte" tells us the maker: it stands for "Dieudonn Debouxthay Brevete", or "Patent Dieudonn Debouxthay" in English. Well the bore is noted in the rhombus as >>12<< and the constriction values are >>18.2/18.2<< & >>17.3/18.2<< so with those it has to be a 12 bore. It has punched on one side of barrel 17.2, on the other side punched JC, EL ,pinfire symbol, K and crown on its top, E LG little crown under them in oval.Please help me to get the closest identification for this nice firearm. On this page, once you scroll past the patent stuff, you'll find a gun very much like yours. Brancquaert Louis Hand Guns 2 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . Order this book online and pay it through Counet Philippe ('Manufacturer') Home > Product Catalog Shotguns made in Belgium category Firearms/ Small arms 731 Rifles 237 Shotguns 359 Pistols 134 Blank/Signal/Rubberball pistols 1 Black powder/Muzzleloader 2 Ammunition 3 Ammunition Components/Reloading 20 Courard Just as many muzzleloaders were converted to breechloadersthink of the Springfield trapdoor action or the British Snidermany pin-fires were converted to center-fire guns. examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these To make purchases and use the full site services, register or login your account. We now have 1689 serial numbers!. late 1880's to early 1890's, .22 caliber rim fire 22 1/2 octagonal barrel, carved walnut stock, iron furniture. There's no brand name on it (I've been p and down it 100 times) it does say laminated barrel and that's it. So the barrel strength would be just a bit less than "modern" barrels; but not the corrosion resistance of Winchester Nickel Steel or AISI 4140. Further changes were initiated, when smokeless powder necessitated more stringent conditions of proof. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. The third is a plain stamp, with the letters A.V.E. gfk0W2|Z#C7xA5 2`f)Hj'[iZWMU=|J-T `)Mtex=]m$azBbk>$QPB gTb0nnPTbj\uD`.3;7 ;U}LuB+2aki!Ld1QNUwr$Oaj9,U1Oe~N2u]6;&?a'LOe3 NIIS/\4fFIGXT[,(rN]3"!2(4YBd^VUY:;jWCJ^f"X.2X:l\d>|D}#&Ofw`Rv|$6&)M Search. The "D.D. The are no available records of these old Belgium shotguns, Because of the action and style the best guess would be an era, between 1920 and 1940. Purchased by Val Forgett of Navy Arms in 1978. Savage continued to build guns under the A.H. Fox name into the 1940s. Heyday of the Shotgun: The art of the gunmaker at the turn of the last century. visiting our on-line listing of manufacturers identifying marks, Flintlock fowling pieces and rifles were made for the Northwest Indian trade until the early twentieth century; so, too, percussion long guns for sale in Africa. I have pics of the Proof marks I want to show you. See Kennett's # 2 and # 9 above. Mark for voluntary treble temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels, Mark for voluntary double temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels. Underneath the whole appears the word St. Etienne. What about a lightning bolt with a star above? Sorry for my delay in responding: I've been OOT and off-line for two weeks. How do I price this piece? Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1 By Alain Daubresse This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. Quite old. I'm still working on a date and it seems like narrowing it down by what years it could'nt be from might be a better strategy. it was my grandfathers and has been in the family for a while. thanks for the help so far. firearms books bibliary. Due to the vast quantity of data to treat, the global work was parted . I recently decided to clean it up. Hand Guns 3 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . ]v8 >ZX 2Fu}) Are you sure they are Damascus and not perhaps fake Damascus made by etching a spiral pattern on solid steel barrels for those who liked the look of Damascus? The mark was seldom requested, Chamber dimensions in millimeters shotguns undergoing smokeless proof. Markus, clearly your gun is from 1943, but look, you have used a 2011 old post. The proof marks shown below will assist in determining nationality of manufacturers when no other markings are evident. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Applied to all gun not made in Belgium but proofed in Belgium. Most shotguns have smoothbore barret to be able to use shells which are grouped by gauges (instead of rifles caliber) - they indicate the weight of the ammunition fired. Using a shotgun shell (a self-contained cartridge with multiple small, sphere-shaped projectiles) instead of a usual bullet is what makes a shotgun a separate kind of a gun. Berleur Guillaume The Rifles & Musket Information. The major countries which either did not have proof or whose marks were not recognized were the U.S. and Spain. The numbers 138 G(looks like a 1) are under the proof mark. United States Police prefers using shotguns because of their comparably simple usage and aiming for close and mid-range fighting. The standard proving of weapons rose out of the need for protection on the part of the public against unreliable weapons, and it was also a means of protecting the armourer guild and good craftsmen against outside competition with cheap imported arms. Cowboy & Old Western History Items 2/3/2023 Bargain Basement 2/3/2023 Check our Services. [more like this] Belgian Flobert Style Warnant 8mm Parlor. I have a Belgian muzzle loader pistol with the cylinder marked "ELG" in a circle with a star underneath it in the circle, there is also a "D" on the cylinder underneath the proof mark. Shotguns became popular after the U.S. Army used them during the First World War while close-range fighting in trenches. Hand Guns 24 Rifles-Shotguns 22 . The second is the crossed branches, with the letters A.E. On barrels of muzzleloading guns that has passed a re-enforced black powder proof. Thanks for any help you can offer.Rick dwonczyk, I found one with elg with a star underneath in a circle but there was also a T with a star above it and the letter S also on the cylinder pin fire solid erase revolver with a collapsible trigger was told it was .31, Hi, Rick. Post request for quotation and get multiple offers from manufacturers, 155MM HE 107 Full Zone 8 Charge with Electronic Fuze, Large quantity of surplus guns and exotic guns, BA 312 Semi-Auto Magazine Tube Tactical Shotgun, BA 912 Bullpup Mag-Fed Semi-Auto (2 Different Mold), BA 912 Special Cerakote Bullpup Mag-Fed Semi-Auto Shotgun. Bernard Lambert Guns and rifles built in Germany and the German principalities before the 1890s typically did not carry proof marks, but the 1891 proof law "grandfathered" these arms by mandating that they be submitted to the proof house and marked with a crown-over-V, the V standing for vorrat or "on hand". This listing allows you to trace back a particular nation's aviation history in reverse-chronological order. Ateliers Saint Laurent, Bauwir Joseph Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Bertrand Antoine & Fils Belgian Arms cie He received his technical training in Soest and then in Warstein. Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. Bernard Henri Eugne Miscellaneous Collings Hadelin Ad Categories: Pre-1840. Any ideas as to date range? These are original antique muzzleloaders that are made by individual gunsmiths or small manufacturing concerns, usually prior to the era of mass production, but sometimes well into the mid-19th century. Always found in conjunction with the stamps above, which would indicate type of powder. Comblain - Dorther Hubert reference books that display proof marks and their meanings. On top between the barrels "CANONS ACIER GARANTI". Side by side shotguns of this era are highly collectable and our inventory changes frequently. After 1924 fractions of grams were no longer used 1892 - present 1K355.5 17 It is a 12 gauge with 70mm = 2 3/4" chambers. You can tell an unaltered pin-fire by the vertical slot in the breech extending to the top of the barrel (and, of course, the absence of a firing pin).

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